Category: Let's talk
*disclaimer*
Apologies if this is in the wrong place.
Hello,
I'm starting to do some creative writing, learning with Stein on Writing among other sources. One thing I thought of just now though is this. I've been blind pretty much all my life, and while this may not be an excuse, it seems to me that it's very difficult for me to talk about views, what the character sees and so on. My question then is, have any of you who write fiction found this especially difficult also? If so what steps have you taken to overcome such difficulties? I'd be interested in your views if you have, or haven't overcome this difficulty, and also if you dont' find it to be a challenge at all. I'd guess that, those of you who went blind in later life, having remember things like colours, may find it a little easier, in this regard, but I could be totally wrong about all of this. Over to you guys anyway. What are your thoughts?
hi simon. i know exactly where you're coming from here. i have asked the strangest questions of sighted people to get my writings acurate. i've studied the behaviour and anatomy of bears to make sure they can really do what i want them to do in my stories, that kind of thng. such as, can a bear really play with it's toes? answer yes, as bears skelitons are very similar to humans. also, perspectives are difficult to get unless you've seen things in the past, for instance, if a character is sitting in front of the narrator, or you are describing what one character can see of another, how is this done. this is purely a visual thing, angles of view etc, and I can't really describe it to one who has never seen, apart from physically showing you angles of sight, sightlines, by taking your hand and drawing an imaginary line from point a, the viewer's eye, to point b, what they are looking at. this is a very intresting question indeed simon, and plaese feel free to discuss this with me further if you wish. and please read some of my writings to see how i've tackled such problems.
This is a good question Simon. I'm taking a Creative Writing course, and was actually wondering the same thing.
Hi Martin,
Thank you for your reply. That's exactly what I mean. How to get perspectives, how much can be seen by one character, different viewpoints of what is seen, and so on. I wonder though how much is necesary also? Would it not suffice to mention a little about scenery, physical description, whatever is needed for the narative, and leave it at that? Or do you think that more elaborate descriptions are necessary. Hm but then that could also be a question of style. I'm just thinking aloud here, as I of course have no idea how I'd tackle it myself as yet.
Hey Bri,
Wow you are? Very cool! Feel like swapping notes some time? I've doubtless got little you need, but I've made some notes on plot, characterization, suspense, markers (or character tags), and am making notes daily from a few sources that you're welcome to if they'd help. Same goes for any of you guys on here. I've also got some links, and a nice little free diary program I keep all my notes in I can point you to as well. But I digress. I can't wait to hear what you guys have to say on this matter. Thanks again to those of you who've posted so far.
Sure. I'll be needing this kind of stuff very soon. Tomorrow, we're supposed to turn in the first page of our story, which I've no idea what it's going to be at this current moment, lol. Anyway, any help will be appreciated.
Hmm, What have they given you to work on? Anything at all? A protagonist? Antagonist? Outline of a plot?
Nothing. At all. He just said he wanted a page, so I'm kind of stuck, lol.
simon, i've gone both ways, i've been descriptive to the point of being too graphic in my opinion, but others who have read tell me my writing's fine, what i hate personally is too little description, she did this, he did that. hmm, let me see if I can find a passage in my latest writings to illistrate.
"Sushanti saw that even the slightest movement hurt her sister. Moving a paw, shifting slightly to allow the two cubs to feed, everything hurt. Closing her eyes, Swarupa bore the agony of every little movement she had to make. She knew she’d been punished for her disrespect for her cubs, and for others than her cubs. Whimpering, she watched her cubs feeding through a mist of pain and remorse.
“Please Eohippus, I can’t deliver another cub, it’s too painful, too bruised, too sore, I can’t, I can’t do it! Please, please don’t make me;” Swarupa begged aloud, her prayer from the heart, “I’m sorry for using my cubs in my selfish game, for hurting patch also. My greatest wish now, is to be left alone with my cubs, to heal quietly on my own, please, please!”
“Rest now,” blackberry said gently to the weeping tigress. Swarupa dimly recognized the voice of the one who’d thrown bottle tops at her, and felt her paw taken in his. But those were not the paws of a tormentor; they were the paws which had guided her first born into the world through the daggers inside her. Gentle paws they really were, the paws of a gentle creature who she’d pushed beyond limits, and who’d not really hurt her when taking his revenge with the bottle tops. Now though, the touch of his paws had a bitter sweet quality, for though it soothed her, it also tore her apart. Sobbing, Swarupa let the touch of the bear’s paws on hers take its revenge. Crying, Swarupa lay, knowing who she’d really hurt, for whom the bottle tops were thrown. Not for his own purposes had the black bear in the skip thrown those bottle tops, he’d been merciful, for Swarupa knew she deserved a far worse punishment for her words, malicious, intentional words, which had meant to hurt more deeply than her own labor had.
“I might have been scored to my soul by the claws of an emerging cub,” Swarupa thought, “but every effort was worth it. Patch’s hurt is far deeper, and he has no joy to come from that. I deserve dead cubs, dead cubs to represent the dead years of patch’s incarceration at the hands of humans, but I’ve got live cubs, I have hope to temper my pain, where he had none. Also, also, I used my cubs in a horrid manner, and that’s unforgivable.” Swarupa opened her eyes to find Patch holding her paw in his. She watched him gazing at her cubs, loving them with his eyes. Then his eyes met hers, and there was no triumph, no glee, just a weary question.
“Patch,” Swarupa said, her voice strong, “I’m sorry, sorry for saying what I did about you and the bell collar.” Patch said nothing, but nodded at the cubs now sleeping peacefully beside Swarupa.
“you looked after an abused cub,” Swarupa choked, “so what I did to mine, using them, abusing their being in my body for my own goals hurt you deeply patch. More deeply than the collar ever did. I abused my position as regards my cubs to keep your paws off my skin. It would be like using them as a live shield if they were born and I’d got into a fight, and pushed them in front of me so you’d have to kill them before you got to me. I was gambling that you’d not strike me because of my cubs being in your way. I abused my cubs like the humans abused you and jess in the zoo. Making her do tricks for the public, while you were left in the background, keeping her together until you two could escape. I’m as bad as those humans patch, I know that now, and for that, I am sorrier than I can put into words. The pain of my labor does not even come close to the pain you suffered while watching jess go through hell at the hands of humans who were meant to protect her. Humans who put a bell around your neck, so you could not protect your sister without letting them know your every move. My body will heal quickly, but your scars never will. I made the mistake of forgetting this. You are gentle patch, for your gentility won out over all the shit, all the crap, all the hurt caused to you and others you care for. I have a loving home, have had a loving home from the day I was born, and I forgot that. You patch, have had to prove yourself to be accepted into this place. I haven’t. If you’d torn up the lie up in anger, the community would have imprisoned you, hurt you for hurting them. You didn’t do this though; you came in, and were a loving son cub to Kamchatka and brother cub to Ekaterina. Ekaterina became your mate, and mama loves you dearly. Mama Kamchatka would still love you if you’d ripped the lie up apart in anger, of this I am sure, but you restrained yourself, stayed your paws, and gave yourself over to helping others. I know the tale of Sita’s birth and how you helped Haimati, and if, if I’d not been so horrible to you, then, then maybe?” Patch nodded. This tiny acknowledgement finally broke Swarupa’s heart. Drawing patch as close as she could, she hugged him, weeping into his coat.
“Now we go on from here,” Patch said, “we both know where we stand I think.” "
i hope this helps.
simon, most creative writing courses give you very little to go on, you have to create your own. at least when I competed a course, i was told my stuff was far too creative, far too in depth, and that was that.
Arg, carte blanche like that does my head in. OK, well if it helps, here's a couple of ideas I've learned so far.
First of all, it is said that you should start with a character, a hero, leading character, that kind of thing. This leading character must want something. You can then bring in an antagonist, villain of the peace. He or she doesn't have to be a criminal, just have a want or desire that is in conflict with your leading character. It actually doesn't have to be a person either, for example if the hero is trying to go somewhere and his car breaks down, the car isnt' evil or criminal, it's also not a person, but as it's working against the protagonist, (albeit not intentionally), it's the antagonist for your story. And yes, I also know that cars can't have desires or wants, so perhaps I should elaborate that many things can work against your hero. The weather, an accident of some kind, a breakdown, a delay due to traffic jams, and so on. Giving your leading character a name, age and description may help you too, to get into the story more.
Another thing I've done, is checked out a quotes site at Famous Quotes and Quotations at BrainyQuote and got some ideas that way. One idea I'm looking at is taken from the quote A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams.
John Barrymore
I'm seeing an old man, one who considers himself old anyway, regretting something that's happened in his past. What that regret is, I'm not sure as yet, perhaps a love he should've admited, something he should've done that would've saved a life? The possibilities are pretty much endless. Anyway I don't want to bog you down, if I haven't aready lol. So, I'll shut up for now.
Lol, thanks. Well, I already know that I'll probably write this in the first person perspective, I just have no idea what to write about.
Even writing in the first person you can take ideas from the stuff above. It might also be a good idea to start from something you are interested in. Like Martin and his bears, horses and so on. Bloody well written by the way Martin. While I'm not sure there was much reference to vision in it, The way you got inside both characters' heads was great though.
Oh, I know, was just thinking aloud, lol. I agree with you, that really was well written.
Well, I don't really find description hard for me at all, but I lost my sight when I was seven, so I could still remember a lot of things. If I can't remember or imagine something, I usually ask people to describe it to me, the way it looks, what colors, different angles and that kind of stuff. I really think that it depends on your style of writing too. Some authors doesn't like to put a lot of description in their stories and some really likes to go in to detail, so it really depends on the choices that you want to make reguarding your story. But creative writing sounds really really fun though, lol. Lots of luck Simo. I really suggest you talk to a sighted person whenever you're stuck on something, because if you're stuck on one place, you're probably going to stay there for a pretty long time until you figure out how to describe it in the right way, lol.
This is true Minh. I wonder, having that different perspective, how easy it would be to put it into your voice? The voice of you, the author I mean. I think I'll try that some time. Get someone to describe a view to me and then describe it from a character's point of view. Creative writing is a hell of a lot of fun, you're absolutely right. In more ways than I first thought, to be honest.
omg Bri! go for the first person! lol, for me, doing the whole first person thing, you can have so much impact on the reader that way, because you're really focussing on that one character and what he/she thinks all the time, so the reader can really connect with them, lol. And if you have a god plot and a well developed story, omg, everybody will totally love it,, lol
Totally agreed with Minh there. First person can involve the reader a whole lot more than 3rd or omniscient.
lol, I love creative writing, it's just so amazingly fun. But yeah, getting the different prospective from a sighted person, you have to put it in to your own voice and then translate it in to the voice of the character, sometimes I get really stuck on that. But it's like a challenge, and writing's always more fun if something's getting in your way of writing the rest of your story, lol
Hahaha, Yeah, I can see how more challenging parts of writing can make it fun. God I've got so much to learn here. Should've seen me trying to come up with two leading characters a day or two ago. It'll get easier though, I suppose.
Yeah, there was no question of it. I knew I'd do first person. It's just trying to figure out what/who I'll actually be writing about.
Good luck with it anyway Bri, and please let us know what happens with it.
hi simon, my extract was to explain my point about the forms of writing. glad you liked it though. and that's just a small chunk. eheheh
yeah Bri, definitely. I'd like to read it, lol.
Hmm Simo, what do you want to write about though. I think it's better to have a plot and then make up the character than just making them first than trying to find a plot fitting their personality and stuff. Do you have to follow a guideline or something?
Ah I see Martin. I've been tought, from the resources I tap into that too much description can slow a story down, but not enough can leave questions unanswered. So it seems to be a fine line between too much and too little. As you deal with emotion in the snippet you showed us though it had to be descriptive really. So good job.
Lol, I'll let you guys know how it goes.
Well the way I'm doing it Minh, the characters are the plot. That is to say their wants, as they are in direct conflict with each other, make the plot. It is then a case of embellishing that plot, drawing up a scenes list, bringing in new characters when need be, and so on, till you have your story.
I myself, used to have trouble with this. If I'm having difficulty describing something, then I'll either ask a sighted person to describe it, or look it up on line. The internet is quite helpful.
The thing I have the most trouble with now is coming up with names. I don't have trouble describing scenery though because my family often describe it to me when we're driving through it. I find this rather annoying, but then again, it's quite helpful. I don't know what colors and such related things look like because I lost my vision around the age at which one starts learning the colors. But it gives me enough knowledge as to what should be this color, shade of color, or these many colors.
Also, coming up with a plot before the characters is a wonderful way to get a book started. I've started many pieces, but have stopped dead because I had all these characters and no plot.
And too creative? I didn't know that was possible. Well, I guess something could be so full of creativity that it seems outlandish or extremely complex. Doesn't matter. What one person thinks is complex could be simply understood by another.
Keep up the good work, all of you!
I'd thought of the net, but again this is something I've yet to try. I suppose other fiction is handy for that too. Again it brings up the question of taking it out of that author's voice and putting it into yours. On characters and no plot, as you have the characters, why not try what I suggest? Take one character and make him or her want something. Take another character and make him or her want something that is in conflict with the first character's want. You then have your protagonist and antagonist. This can then be expanded upon by making another character want something that is also in conflict with your protagonist's desire, but different from your antagonist. Plots seem to make themselves after that.
One thing I've learned, to deal with individual scenes, is to take two characters and give them different scripts. By scripts in this instance, I mean intent. For example, one character could be the headmaster of a school having expelled a pupil, the other the mother of said pupil. Mother comes to see headmaster, headmaster's intent is not to take the kid back under any circumstances, mother's intent is to get the headmaster to do so. Viola, you have a scene, with conflict. This is from Stein on riting too, called the actor studio method.
hth,
Simon
i've got to the stage where, give me two characters, and a scene, and i'll write you a short story.
Exactly what I mean Martin. All you need is a couple of characters and a desire for both of them, and viola.
Thanks Simon. That helps a lot. I think when I'm actually sitting down to think about it, this is easily doable.
viola? no,prefer guitars myself. hehehehe
Just a daft phrase I use. I like turning words around like that. One of my many eccentricities, I suppose.
You're welcoem Bri. I can't wait to see what you'll come up with, and how it is received by your professor. Good luck again.
Simon, that may work for you and others, but not me. I wish it were that easy, but that just doesn't seem to work. If I'm given a plot first, I can come up with everything else e.g, beginning, characters, rising action, falling action, and conclusion.
I think this method really works for people who have some trouble writing or brainstorming.
I've tried your method more than enough times, and it gets me nowhere. I'm writing a book right now. It began with a simple plot, which has expanded. And I've gotten farther with this book than I have with any other attempts for a novel.
Different strokes for different folks I guess. My fear, employing a method such as that would be that my characters weren't real enough. You have to be so careful to make sure the book doesn't seem hacked together. There are authors out there that can do that extremely well of course, so it can be done. Not for me though.
I totally agree with Raven though. I really need to have a plot laid out in front of me before I can write a story. Making up the characters is easy for me too, but having the plot there makes writing a story so much less difficult after that.
I find that really interesting. It's totally different for me. If I invent my characters with enough background and a need, want or desire, then that in itself is the plot. For example, I create a character, the protagonist, who, say, is in the wrong place at the wrong time, witnesses a murder. Gives testimony and sends the antagonist down. Antagonist, obviously doesn't want to get caught for the murder he just commited, knows that the protagonist gave evidence against him, swears vengence on his release from prison. The plot? A suspense story where the antagonist is out to get the hero, hero has to stay one step ahead to stay alive. You can then weave all sorts of stuff into the plot. Villain kidnaps hero's daughter, sets his house alight, blows up his car, yadda yadda yadda. There also has to be other, less dramatic obstacles as well, like a car chase, where the hero's car either runs out of petrol or breaks down some how, and perhaps the odd natural obstacle too. Hmm. I may well start writing this, lol. Anyway my point is as I said in the beginning, bit of a life story and stuf for the hero and villain, and viola.
How do you work it Minh? I'm intrigued to know how you'd start with the plot and weave characters into it.
Also, I'm coming across, more and more with the people who write that I talk to, who say they just write, not writing down characterizations, plots, outlines and so on. How do you go about that? I have to start with a plan myself, or it either goes nowhere at all, or all over the place. Not that this plan has to be written in stone, mind you, but at least it's a basis from which to work.
I see. I think I also get what Minh is saying. I think this story would be easier for me to write if i had some sort of plot or something. As for writing, I just write. I can't make outlines or anything like that. I just sit and think, and then write. No planning for me. I can't do it.
Interesting. Where do you get your ideas from then? For me, if I describe a character well enough, then ideas can come from that, either for a complete story or a scene. Take this guy for example:
Name: Eddie James
Age: 60
Wants: Not sure yet, depends on the story.
Description.
Tallish, about 5 8, losing his hair, except at the back. Bit on the well-built side too. Hands of a manual worker, rough, strong hands. He has a fair bit of muscle left, despite his liking for food and inability to exercise after his heart attack. Walks with slow, cautious gait, stooping slightly. Aweful tendency to fly off the handle at the least thing. Not much patience at all. Has a northeastern English accent. Not quite Geordie, but close to it, tempered by his moving around the country. Used to be in the military, and so military matters are close to his heart. Likes to garden, is good at it too. Proud of the vegitables and flowers he grows, although is more fond of vegitables than flowers.
Ideas off the top of my head for this guy are, a scene, however mundane it may seem, involving his garden, vandalism of his flowers or veg, that kind of thing. While in his garden some antagonist walks by and says something to piss him off, we have our conflict. Perhaps his temper makes him prone to domestic violence. A scene involving him and his son who is going into the military. These are all scene-based rather than full story, but could flesh out a story nicely.
In starting with the plot first, where do your plots come from? I wouldnt' mind trying it that way too, to see what can be done.
Lol, I actually have no idea. I can just see how it would be easier. Well, actually, I do think of something that I would be most interested, or that I'd like to read, myself. I don't know though. I'm not a creative writer, so...
i don't know how i start writing. soemtimes, i'll have two characters having a fight for instance, then before I know it one character has killed the other and i've got shit on, motherless cubs etc. that happened recently.
Bri, is there such a thing as a creative writer though do you think? Or is it that we all have stories to tell, it's just finding our voices, and so a way of doing so?
Martin, there too though, you are starting with a couple of characters aren't you? A protagonist and an antagonist. Sure the story goes from there, with one having killed the other and so the story goes on in all directions from there, but you seem, in that instance at least, to have started with two characters in conflict. Also, do you elaborate on the character who has done the killing? Telling their story within the bigger story you are telling? Or does the fight just happen and the story then shift to another leading character?
That's a good point, Simon. I would have to agree with you. However, there are those people who aren't able to sit down and make something like a story or poem. I'm one of those. I really wish I could, and also that I could write songs, but that's not me. I'm far better at writing papers. I can't think of elaborate plots, or something that will be interesting, or creative.
I hear you on that one Bri. What do you think, makes papers easier for you to write, than something creative like a story, song or poem?
I don't know. I guess the fact that in papers, you are required to either make an argument and provide evidence, or it is your own opinion, and there is no right and wrong answer. I'm more of a logical person, I think, and that makes it easier. Maybe logical isn't quite the right word, but I just don't find it easy to write a story that I make up in my own mind.
Hmm, so could it be one of structure then? If so the structured approach I suggest here may be of use to you. You can also have a point to make with your story too. Put forward an argument, through the voice of one of your characters, a counter argument with the antagonist, and a conclusion by how the story pans out. Which argument wins, in your oppinion, coming out in the climax of the story. Sort of an adaptation of Jesus's parables, if you like. And no, I'm not suggesting a religious theme, I'm just giving an example of style to base yours on. What do you think?
Lol. Hmmm, well, I like the idea that it is one of structure, that may be it. I'm not totally sure if the whole argument idea will work, but one can only try. I guess that when someone wants to write something, it sort of calls for the quality of impulsiveness, in a way, because you're thinking up things, and writing them down. As I am not an impulsive person, I think that could also be it as well. This is not to say that I plan out everything, since I don't, I just can't do spur of the moment things, unless I have a good idea of where I want to go with it. For example, when I have a paper to write. I think of a topic long before I write it, so that when I sit down to write it, everything I want to say just comes out.
Indeed. This is where structuring your composition would come in, I think. I'm like that too. Sadly, this also means that free writing isn't something I can do easily either. Having said that, when given a writing prompt it may be slightly different. Perhaps doing some of them may free up some of those good old creative juices and get them flowing. You know the sort of thing, set aside 10 minutes, think of a word and write about that word. It doesn't matter what you write, just write. After the 10 minutes is up, look at what you've written and perhaps you'll have something you can use at a later date.
I like structure, knowing where I'm going with things. As a completely random OT thing, this is why I don't do well in ill-defined relationships. But that's, if you'll excuse the pun, another story. Get your characters, make them want something at odds with each other, flesh out your plot, make up a scenes list, and away we go. That's the theory anyway. It also should be noted I haven't actually managed to get past the characterization bit as yet. I am in there trying though.
Lol...I know how that goes. Also, I think that might help, I'm just not good at impulsive writing. I don't know. I like your idea, however.
Yeah, I really think that, for a number of us, it's just getting that initial impetus. Once we've got that, we're up and running. Hmm. How about we try to come up with writing prompts for each other? Not just Bri and I, but anyone reading this board. Anyone up for it? Take it in turns. Sort of like is done on other boards here. One poster takes the prompt from the post before, writes on it, then provides one of their own.
If anyone's up for it, I'll start with the prompt "beginning".
right, so here's a beginning. two bears in a wood, there is a tree with honey in a bees nest at the top of the tree, you have a black bear, and a grizly bear, they are traditional enemies, though the black bear can climb the tree, the grizzly is too big and fat and can't climb too well.
now i've set the scene, let's go on from here?
That indeed is a beginning. But what I meant for us to do was to write about what that writing prompt signified to us. Beginnings mean so many things to so many people, and usually more than one thing to one person. What I've written on this subject, was done in 10 minutes, and I managed to come up with 601 words. I touched on the beginning of a relationship, the beginning of a life and how that in itself can be born out of love. Many of us begin at home, and so I touched on that subject too. This brought up some memories of when I was growing up, and somehow I got onto the subject of foresight, where many beginnings wouldn't happen if we all could employ it to its full potential. This is what I mean. Taking a word for a walk, and seeing where it leads. Not giving an example thereof. Thanks anyway.
ok simon. hmm will have to think on that.
lol And let's not lose sight of my original question, which I'd still love people's views on. I've got so many great views on it it's amazing, it's always great to hear others' viewpoints though. Anyone else got anything to add? Depicting what your characters can see, as a blind writer who has never seen.
Bri, I think you like writing papers more because there are criteria and requirements. What you need to do is laid out for you. Since you're given a foundation, it's much easier to just build onto it than it would have been to come up with a foundation and take it from there.
I never really think about coming up with plots. Plots just come to me when I least expect it. When I try to think of a plot it doesn't work, so the gears of my mind tend to grind and turn when I think about other things. So a plot will randomly pop up in my mind in the middle of a test. Most of my plots relate to family or friendship dysfunction, which isn't surprising to me because I've had to suffer through that quite a bit.
And Simon, I think your idea about giving each other writing prompts is a wonderful idea. This could help someone come up with ideas for stories or poetry. How lovely!
Here's my free write on beginning:
Is there really such thing as an end? Or, is it just a fresh start. We just end one beginning to start a new one. So the end is really just another beginning. The end of life is the beginning of death; the end of childhood is the beginning of adulthood; the end of working is the beginning of retirement. So are beginning and ending the same thing, or do they just overlap like circles in a venn diagram? Interesting. When is the first beginning? When is the last? Is there a last beginning? And is that last beginning the end? We go on and on through life starting and stopping, and picking up and dropping things, but there really isn't a difference. To end one thing is to start another, and to pick up one thing is to drop another. So between all these overlappping starting lines and finish lines, is there a middle? Or, are all these lines woven into an elaborate, intricate web where middles and transitions are nonexistent? Between the very beginning and very end, the other starts and finishes eliminate any middles, halfways, and almosts. So there is no such thing as really resting, taking a break, or completely stopping, because while we do this, we are still going, starting, and picking up new things as we leave behind a trail of ended beginnings.
Next prompt: standing up and falling down
That's another thing that is probable. I like my structure, I suppose. Requirements are also helpful. Your idea makes sense.